IF not for Camilla could Charles & Di's marriage have survived?

[Lindelle]

I doubt if it would have put  Charles off physically because well....................I won't say it.     However, it should have made them more even keel emotionally since Charles has as many or more emotional problems than Diana ever did.
[/quote]

You know Drezzle, I knew Charles had his bad points but saying that he had/has emotional problems puts a new spin on it. More than likely, he did, has. Good Point!

[amabel]

............................. .........bulimic and it would have put Charles off her physically plus made it difficult for them to be on an even keel emotionally with each other...

I doubt if it would have put  Charles off physically because well....................I won't say it.     However, it should have made them more even keel emotionally since Charles has as many or more emotional problems than Diana ever did.

well i have read it in more places than one, that it did put him off her... and I can't see why not... knowing someone is vomiting deliberately would be pretty offputting IMO.  and people with emotional problems are not commonly very good at providing support to other people with emotional problems...

[drezzle]

Well I suppose it's normal to expect husbands and wives to be turned off when the other gets sick.  That's why they have the clause "in sickness and in health" written into the marriage vows.  Apparently the higher authorities decided that was necessary to ensure that one spouse did not run for the escape routes as soon as the other one became ill. 

[sandy]

............................. .........bulimic and it would have put Charles off her physically plus made it difficult for them to be on an even keel emotionally with each other...

I doubt if it would have put  Charles off physically because well....................I won't say it.     However, it should have made them more even keel emotionally since Charles has as many or more emotional problems than Diana ever did.

well i have read it in more places than one, that it did put him off her... and I can't see why not... knowing someone is vomiting deliberately would be pretty offputting IMO.  and people with emotional problems are not commonly very good at providing support to other people with emotional problems...

HUH? Vomiting deliberately? Bulimia is an EATING disorder. Diana didn't exactly enjoy sticking her finger down her throat and vomiting. Vomiting is not "fun". So you think Charles was "justified" in running to his nanny/mistress because he couldn't stomach (pardon the pun) her eating disorder.

What if Charles had bulimia would you think it "acceptable" for Diana to be put off by it.

What if Charles had diabetes and had to stick a needle in himself every day or the wife had to do it? Would you think it "OK" for Diana to be repulsed by it and walk away?

Spouses are supposed to support each other or so I thought.

[amabel]

 Wouldn't she have brought them up, wanting to resolve difficulties?  Of course, all this assumes a new woman wouldn't have appeared on the horizon after



Excuse me? Put Charles off with Bulimia!! If he had not been with his snake of a mistress I doubt she'd get it. Annabel you are trying IMO to justify Camilla and Charles behavior with Diana. What if Charles had a sickness where he threw up a lot or had dysentery from a severe illness). Would that give a wife grounds to walk away? I don't get your reasoning.

Charles was a jerk pure and simple. And talking about Diana and Charles not having anything in common doesn't excuse HIM or Camilla IMO.

Without the mistress in the background, I think Diana and Charles would have learned to enjoy each other's interests.

Sandy, please I don't think there is much point in us debating since you seem to think that every time I say something I'm attacking Diana or justifying Charles and Camilla.  The name of this thread is "could Charles and D have survived as a couple if there had been no Camilla".  I don't think that they would have.. But the point is "If htere was no Camilla". Every time i mention something about the fact that C and D, had little in common, or there were other issues, you keep bringing Camilla into it.

and I'm not justifying his turing away from her sexually because she had bulimia, though I can understand that it would be offputting, I'm just stating that it was a fact that it did put him off her.... You seem to think that every time I state a fact, I am somehow attacking Diana.. so i think we should agree to disagree....
.

[sandy]

I was responding to "vomiting deliberately" phrase. It was an eating disorder Diana would hardly have "vomited deliberately" if she didn't have the eating disorder.

Charles obviously didn't love Diana but married her anyway. If he loved her he'd try to be supportive and work with her in helping her get over the bulimia. Diana of course sensed Charles didn't love her and this IMO brought out the stress which triggeredt he bulimia. A loving husband would not be "put off" by a wife he loved deeply no matter what the illness. I wonder what Charles would have done had Diana had a very serious illness like Cancer.

[Trudie]

Amabel

I think had Camilla not been in the picture the marriage would have survived. Charles married a girl who grew up pure and simple. As his child bride matured and blossomed the age gap would have not been that wide and they could have made a successful marriage. The problem was Camilla was there from the very beginning and her agenda was quite clear to Charles and the Highgrove set so Really Charles didn't put any effort into his marriage at all. His only contribution to the marriage was the success of providing heirs and the continuation of the Monarchy. No real effort required.

[amabel]

Amabel

I think had Camilla not been in the picture the marriage would have survived. Charles married a girl who grew up pure and simple. As his child bride matured and blossomed the age gap would have not been that wide and they could have made a successful marriage. The problem was Camilla was there from the very beginning and her agenda was quite clear to Charles and the Highgrove set so Really Charles didn't put any effort into his marriage at all. His only contribution to the marriage was the success of providing heirs and the continuation of the Monarchy. No real effort required.

but if Charles was not willing to put much effort into the marriage, would that have been any different if he didn't have Camilla on the side? I agree that he didn't make much effort, but I don't think that that was down to Camilla's influence. I think that had he been the guy he was, who had had several relationships over the years but none of them very serous, and he had then decided that he had to get married, for duty's sake.. and he'd picked Diana, because he was fond of her and she was available, he would still have been the same guy.  that is, he wouldn't have tried very hard with the marriage.  If Diana had shared his interests, gotten on wit his family etc he would have muddled along with her and had an affectionate but mabye not very close marriage
... And, if we are going to assume that everything else was the same, except that he didn't have a relationship with a woman named Camilla, if Di WASNT all that into his pursuits, didn't get on too well with his family, hated Balmoral etc, Charles would just have gone his own way and left her to go hers.  why would the age gap have grown less if Cam wasn't there?  IMO Diana did mature,  but the thing was that she grew in ways that did not suit Charles... she grew away from the Royal lifestyle and found her own way of living....

[sandy]

There's such a thing as bad influences. I think Camilla was a bad influence on Charles. He probably would have been a completely different person. He may not even have married Diana. He could have married Anna Wallace who dropped him because she objected to: Camilla. If Camilla had not been around he could very well have married Anna.

The royals cut Diana loose. She was not in the Royal Lifestyle after the divorce for obvious reasons. She did above and beyond for the royal family.

[Trudie]

I think Charles would have put more effort into marriage if he had been alone and Diana had not been so suspicious of another woman right from the start. I think the only person in the family Diana did not get on well with was Princess Anne, who was the one person who's main interest was horses. I think as Diana matured she would have grown in ways to suit Charles but he was petty and jealous of her popularity so really she didn't grow away from the royal lifestyle she grew away from him and his friends and found a new way of being royal and closer to the people. I think Diana's way of living was like HM and that was to lead by example. I had also read somewhere that Diana often joined in the shoots but was careful not to be photographed because of the message it sent as Diana did wear fur once and Peta pounced so she never wore her fur again.

[amabel]

well Trudie, from what I've read, she didn't join in shoots, and didn't like shooting or hunting. I think that she may have gone a few times, after her marriage, but she didn't enjoy it and generally speaking she was annoyed by Charles's loving shooting fishing and hunting for most of his leisure time....
I've never heard of anyone photographing shoots at Balmoral.

and again, i don't think she liked Anne certainly but from what I've read, she didn't get on with the rest of the Balmroal crew, who were all (with the exception of Margaret) into outdoorsy life.  most of them were older than Di and she longed to get away form Balmoral and back to London....
I'm off to bed now! but honestly why do you think that (sicne you obviously have a low opinion of Charles) that he would be so much nicer if Camila wasn't around? If he was petty and jealous of her popularity, I think he was going tot be like that whether he had a mistress or not...
She did grow away from the Royal lifestyle since they LOVE (most of them) outdoors life, tramping moors in cold and wet and rarely go on hols in the sun. The Queen LOVES country life and killing things.. Diana didn't really care for that sort of thing, she wanted a country house so that her boys could go shooting etc but for herself her preferred hols were in the sun and her preferred recreations were swimming and tennis....
that IMO is why she was mor popular iwth the average Englsih person, becuase they can understand watning to holiday abroad in a nice hot climate rather than in rainy Scotland

[Trudie]

Amabel Diana did take the boys on ski holidays as well and hiking and white water rafting so to say she didn't enjoy the outdoors is a little off. Personally I don't think it looks good for women to kill unless you are a born serial killer it is really not something that comes natural to a woman. But I can agree Diana did prefer the city and it was closer to her interest in the arts.

[Kate]

I would believe had Camilla not been included in all the country and outside events, Diana would have joined in. It's a simple as that. Why would she put herself into a position where all the people that hunted and were shooting were Charles and Camilla's friends and they only half heartedly accepted Charles's wife....Soames was quite outwardly mouthly about the differences in their ages etc and made no bones about the fact that he did not approve of Diana as a wife for Charles.. Since it would have suited Charles to allow his friends to verbally attack Diana , so as he didn't feel too guilty about seeing Camilla at these times, he let whatever was said, pass!!

[Lady63]

Imho I think Charles in the cold hard light of day just CHOSE to not get along with Diana.  A kind of 'I may HAVE to do this, but I'm not going to LIKE it nor LOVE it' attitude. Camilla suited his ego better and that's all it was.

Regards,
Lady63

[Trudie]

Kate you forgot to add that Diana was only half heartedly accepted by the Highgrove set until she provided the heir and spare. They all knew Charles real love was Cams  After Diana served her purpose that is when Cams and their friends declared open season on Diana. If Charles had not known Camilla nor made her non negotiable I think Charles friends would have whole heartedly accepted Diana and the marriage would have survived.

[Ursula]

Imho I think Charles in the cold hard light of day just CHOSE to not get along with Diana.  A kind of 'I may HAVE to do this, but I'm not going to LIKE it nor LOVE it' attitude. Camilla suited his ego better and that's all it was.

Regards,
Lady63

I totally agree. Camilla knew just how to manipulate him by stroking his ego.  

Kate you forgot to add that Diana was only half heartedly accepted by the Highgrove set until she provided the heir and spare. They all knew Charles real love was Cams  After Diana served her purpose that is when Cams and their friends declared open season on Diana. If Charles had not known Camilla nor made her non negotiable I think Charles friends would have whole heartedly accepted Diana and the marriage would have survived.

Absolutely.  His friends took their cues from Charles.  If he had been supportive and respectful of his wife, they would have been tripping over themselves to do likewise.  HE set the tone.  

[Kate]

I absolutely agree with you Trudie... and yourself, Ursula. Charles set the tone...

I just want people to remember how Diana was treated and know about all these issues and events that happened , while married to Charles....I feel the younger people, need to know the circumstances and events... Diana tried to hold her own, but could never outdo those two at their own game!!!

[sandy]

well Trudie, from what I've read, she didn't join in shoots, and didn't like shooting or hunting. I think that she may have gone a few times, after her marriage, but she didn't enjoy it and generally speaking she was annoyed by Charles's loving shooting fishing and hunting for most of his leisure time....
I've never heard of anyone photographing shoots at Balmoral.

and again, i don't think she liked Anne certainly but from what I've read, she didn't get on with the rest of the Balmroal crew, who were all (with the exception of Margaret) into outdoorsy life.  most of them were older than Di and she longed to get away form Balmoral and back to London....
I'm off to bed now! but honestly why do you think that (sicne you obviously have a low opinion of Charles) that he would be so much nicer if Camila wasn't around? If he was petty and jealous of her popularity, I think he was going tot be like that whether he had a mistress or not...
She did grow away from the Royal lifestyle since they LOVE (most of them) outdoors life, tramping moors in cold and wet and rarely go on hols in the sun. The Queen LOVES country life and killing things.. Diana didn't really care for that sort of thing, she wanted a country house so that her boys could go shooting etc but for herself her preferred hols were in the sun and her preferred recreations were swimming and tennis....
that IMO is why she was mor popular iwth the average Englsih person, becuase they can understand watning to holiday abroad in a nice hot climate rather than in rainy Scotland

Diana got along with Andrew and Fergie, Edward and from his letters (which were published" Philip was cordial to her. He even wrote to her saying he and Elizabeth could not understand how Charles could prefer to Camilla to her.

[Trudie]

Amabel

During their courtship there were pictures of Diana taken at Balmoral fishing and enjoying country life. At the time Diana was also blooded as they call it when she killed an animal. Later on she was not into the shooting so much but she did have a hunting outfit and did go out to watch. If Diana was so anti hunting as the Highgrove set have painted her and the media I doubt very much she would have encouraged William and Harry to or allowed them to learn when she was alive. The straw that ended in the separation was when Diana decided not to attend a traditional hunting house party that she and Charles did at Sandringham, as she remarked at the time her portion of food could be reserved for Fatty Soames.

[Lindelle]

The survival of their marriage had nothing to do with hunting and shooting. It had nothing to do with whether they were indoor or outdoor people. Most marriages have different interests and they survive.
C&D's marriage didn't survive because of a third party.

[Kate]

Well I suppose it's normal to expect husbands and wives to be turned off when the other gets sick.  That's why they have the clause "in sickness and in health" written into the marriage vows.  Apparently the higher authorities decided that was necessary to ensure that one spouse did not run for the escape routes as soon as the other one became ill. 

Like your point of view, however,if someone is close to you , husband, wife, and especially children, when they are sick ( vomiting) and unwell, it is natural , IMO, to want to comfort that person.. Now I realize that Diana's problem grew out of wanting to be slim ( which I always thinks of Charles pinching her and saying a remark re  her fat) until it becomes obsessive . Since Charles saw a similar situation with her sister, who he was dating previously, he surely understood the reason ... I wonder if he said something similar to her sister..
Regardless, of the whys and wherefores, if you are a caring person, and you fear for your partners health, you show compassion, not a rebuke.. as Charles did...

[drezzle]

Sometimes it's easier to get angry with a sick person instead of feeling real grief for them...................so the anger could be due to ignorance and lack of caring or it could also be due to caring too much and the resulting frustration.

[Hale]

If members are wondering why many of their posts have disappeared and they haven't seen this post by Mediastar then please click on the link below.
http://theinternetforum.net/royalforum/index.php/topic,43791.msg917313.html#msg917313

Meanwhile, the reason I posted this topic is because everyone assumes and excepts if not for Camilla then C & D's marriage would have survived.  However it is my contention that aside from the age gap and lack of common interests there is also Charles' lack of ability to be faithful to one woman.  Never forget, at the time Charles was seeing Camilla he was also seeing Kanga.

Elizabeth Buchanan

Do members honestly believe that if not for Camilla then Diana would have been happy if Charles was unfaithful with other women?  It is my contention that PC needs women for constant reassurance.  

Also, why is it that any criticism of Diana is viewed as an unforgivable act?  Diana was not perfect anymore than Charles.  Diana was no innocent either as Charles is no innocent.  Therefore I make no apologies to the torch bearers.  

I don't think there is much point in us debating since you seem to think that every time I say something I'm attacking Diana or justifying Charles and Camilla.

Well said amabel.

[drezzle]

Diana may have had an insurmountable problem with Charles's general womanizing behavior, but I have this impression of Camilla as singularly bold, aggressive and competitive to a degree seldom seen in most mistresses.   

Another point that suggests if was Camilla moreso than other mistresses was when Diana said there were 3 of us in the marriage, so it was a bit crowded.  In that sentence she certainly discounted both Hewett and Kanga as overcrowding the marriage and causing serious problems.

[whisperofsound]

does not matter if camilla was in the picture, but charles and his wife i think like the entitlement(?sp.) feel, etc.